Bump Tiles to build with minimum JDK 1.8 ?

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Bump Tiles to build with minimum JDK 1.8 ?

mck-2
Are there any objections if i update the tiles master pom, and all tiles
projects, to

 - build with minimum version of jdk 1.8
 - compile to compiler and target 1.7
 - updated all other maven plugins to latest versions.


I'll do this tomorrow if no one speaks up.

regards,
Mick
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Re: Bump Tiles to build with minimum JDK 1.8 ?

Antonio Petrelli-3
Hello
sorry to bump here, but I think a major version should be released with
such an important change.

Antonio

2017-09-04 14:19 GMT+02:00 mck <[hidden email]>:

> Are there any objections if i update the tiles master pom, and all tiles
> projects, to
>
>  - build with minimum version of jdk 1.8
>  - compile to compiler and target 1.7
>  - updated all other maven plugins to latest versions.
>
>
> I'll do this tomorrow if no one speaks up.
>
> regards,
> Mick
>
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Re: Bump Tiles to build with minimum JDK 1.8 ?

Wendy Smoak-3
In reply to this post by mck-2
What Antonio said.  I was just going to check version numbers and
trunk is showing 3.1-SNAPSHOT.  If you're going to require a new Java
version I think that should be a major version change, unless I'm
missing something.  -Wendy
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Re: Bump Tiles to build with minimum JDK 1.8 ?

mck-2
In reply to this post by Antonio Petrelli-3


On Mon, 4 Sep 2017, at 22:36, Antonio Petrelli wrote:
> Hello
> sorry to bump here, but I think a major version should be released with
> such an important change.


Yes, good idea.
If there's no other objections then I'll apply the master pom updates
onwards to major versions.

That means:
  tiles-autotag-2.0-SNAPSHOT
  tiles-request-2.0-SNAPSHOT
  tiles-4.0-SNAPSHOT


 Antonio and Wendy, I presume that you didn't mean simply not patch
 versions, ie bumping to
  tiles-autotag-2.3-SNAPSHOT
  tiles-request-1.1-SNAPSHOT
  tiles-3.1-SNAPSHOT

regards,
Mick
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Re: Bump Tiles to build with minimum JDK 1.8 ?

Wendy Smoak-3
I have not been following things that closely.  I usually look to
Apache Commons when trying to decide these things, but they don't call
out platform level changes in their doc:
https://commons.apache.org/releases/versioning.html

But yes, I think it means Tiles 4.x if you are going to require that
users upgrade their Java version in order to upgrade from Tiles 3.x,
because it implies that you are going to use some new language
features that would make Tiles "not interface compatible with the
prior version."

This has long been a point of contention, with framework developers
wanting to use the latest and greatest, but framework users having
more barriers to upgrading. :)

--
Wendy

On Mon, Sep 4, 2017 at 4:37 PM, mck <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
>
> On Mon, 4 Sep 2017, at 22:36, Antonio Petrelli wrote:
>> Hello
>> sorry to bump here, but I think a major version should be released with
>> such an important change.
>
>
> Yes, good idea.
> If there's no other objections then I'll apply the master pom updates
> onwards to major versions.
>
> That means:
>   tiles-autotag-2.0-SNAPSHOT
>   tiles-request-2.0-SNAPSHOT
>   tiles-4.0-SNAPSHOT
>
>
>  Antonio and Wendy, I presume that you didn't mean simply not patch
>  versions, ie bumping to
>   tiles-autotag-2.3-SNAPSHOT
>   tiles-request-1.1-SNAPSHOT
>   tiles-3.1-SNAPSHOT
>
> regards,
> Mick
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Re: Bump Tiles to build with minimum JDK 1.8 ?

Brett Ryan
I've never seen contention with library developers and users with regards to moving forward with platforms. I think the myth exists and only serves to stop progress moving forwards. There are still libraries holding on to 1.5 support with no good reason but to support prior users.

Never hold back moving to new platforms or upgrading dependencies. The major jump is a good visible move to those failing to read the changelog.

> On 5 Sep 2017, at 06:58, Wendy Smoak <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> I have not been following things that closely.  I usually look to
> Apache Commons when trying to decide these things, but they don't call
> out platform level changes in their doc:
> https://commons.apache.org/releases/versioning.html
>
> But yes, I think it means Tiles 4.x if you are going to require that
> users upgrade their Java version in order to upgrade from Tiles 3.x,
> because it implies that you are going to use some new language
> features that would make Tiles "not interface compatible with the
> prior version."
>
> This has long been a point of contention, with framework developers
> wanting to use the latest and greatest, but framework users having
> more barriers to upgrading. :)
>
> --
> Wendy
>
>> On Mon, Sep 4, 2017 at 4:37 PM, mck <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>>
>>> On Mon, 4 Sep 2017, at 22:36, Antonio Petrelli wrote:
>>> Hello
>>> sorry to bump here, but I think a major version should be released with
>>> such an important change.
>>
>>
>> Yes, good idea.
>> If there's no other objections then I'll apply the master pom updates
>> onwards to major versions.
>>
>> That means:
>>  tiles-autotag-2.0-SNAPSHOT
>>  tiles-request-2.0-SNAPSHOT
>>  tiles-4.0-SNAPSHOT
>>
>>
>> Antonio and Wendy, I presume that you didn't mean simply not patch
>> versions, ie bumping to
>>  tiles-autotag-2.3-SNAPSHOT
>>  tiles-request-1.1-SNAPSHOT
>>  tiles-3.1-SNAPSHOT
>>
>> regards,
>> Mick
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Re: Bump Tiles to build with minimum JDK 1.8 ?

mck-2
In reply to this post by Wendy Smoak-3

>
> But yes, I think it means Tiles 4.x if you are going to require that
> users upgrade their Java version in order to upgrade from Tiles 3.x,
> because it implies that you are going to use some new language
> features that would make Tiles "not interface compatible with the
> prior version."
>


So here there's two separate proposed java bumps…

 1) upgrade the jdk required to build from 1.7 to 1.8, and
 2) bump the minimum runtime to Java7 (from Java6).


Note (2) was already agreed upon and has been public for some time:
 
 - http://tiles.apache.org/download.html
 - http://svn.apache.org/viewvc?view=revision&revision=1536392
 -
 http://mail-archives.apache.org/mod_mbox/tiles-dev/201310.mbox/%3C1382990767.698.54.camel%40Device-D2AB6C%3E


So the only change here really is bumping the minimum java required to
build the project.
My thoughts now are that this requires only a patch (minor.minor)
version.

While if we were to bump the minimum runtime to Java8, then that would
definitely warrant the new major versions.

what do folk think?

regards,
Mick

ps  I came across this having troubles getting Apache's Jenkins
infrastructure to build Tiles projects on JDK1.7, of which i see haven't
managed to fix. (thinking that `maven-toolchains-plugin` needs to be
added to pom's that want to still build with 1.7.)
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Re: Bump Tiles to build with minimum JDK 1.8 ?

Nicolas LE BAS-2
In reply to this post by Wendy Smoak-3
Hi all,
just trying to understand the motivation behind the change.
Currently: tiles builds with jdk 1.7 and targets 1.6.
Mck proposes two changes:
- building with 1.8: I think this does not impact end users at all, and
does not mandate a major version.
- targetting 1.7: this impacts end users, but why? Is it an option to stay
with 1.6? If not, why not be consitent and bump it all the way to 1.8. 1.9
is coming out this month and Oracle has dropped support for 1.7 two years ago.

What do you think?
Nic


On September 4, 2017 17:03:17 Wendy Smoak <[hidden email]> wrote:

> I have not been following things that closely.  I usually look to
> Apache Commons when trying to decide these things, but they don't call
> out platform level changes in their doc:
> https://commons.apache.org/releases/versioning.html
>
> But yes, I think it means Tiles 4.x if you are going to require that
> users upgrade their Java version in order to upgrade from Tiles 3.x,
> because it implies that you are going to use some new language
> features that would make Tiles "not interface compatible with the
> prior version."
>
> This has long been a point of contention, with framework developers
> wanting to use the latest and greatest, but framework users having
> more barriers to upgrading. :)
>
> --
> Wendy
>
> On Mon, Sep 4, 2017 at 4:37 PM, mck <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>>
>> On Mon, 4 Sep 2017, at 22:36, Antonio Petrelli wrote:
>>> Hello
>>> sorry to bump here, but I think a major version should be released with
>>> such an important change.
>>
>>
>> Yes, good idea.
>> If there's no other objections then I'll apply the master pom updates
>> onwards to major versions.
>>
>> That means:
>>   tiles-autotag-2.0-SNAPSHOT
>>   tiles-request-2.0-SNAPSHOT
>>   tiles-4.0-SNAPSHOT
>>
>>
>>  Antonio and Wendy, I presume that you didn't mean simply not patch
>>  versions, ie bumping to
>>   tiles-autotag-2.3-SNAPSHOT
>>   tiles-request-1.1-SNAPSHOT
>>   tiles-3.1-SNAPSHOT
>>
>> regards,
>> Mick


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Re: Bump Tiles to build with minimum JDK 1.8 ?

mck-2
In reply to this post by mck-2

>
> Note (2) was already agreed upon and has been public for some time:
>  
>  - http://tiles.apache.org/download.html
>  - http://svn.apache.org/viewvc?view=revision&revision=1536392
>  -
>  http://mail-archives.apache.org/mod_mbox/tiles-dev/201310.mbox/%3C1382990767.698.54.camel%40Device-D2AB6C%3E
>


Correction: those references refer to decisions around both (1) and (2)

:-)
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Re: Bump Tiles to build with minimum JDK 1.8 ?

mck-2
In reply to this post by mck-2

>  - build with minimum version of jdk 1.8
>  - compile to compiler and target 1.7
>  - updated all other maven plugins to latest versions.


As the discussion remains on whether or not this warrants a major
version, I've submitted these changes and will make a test release of it
available.

http://svn.apache.org/viewvc?view=revision&revision=1807302

regards,
Mick

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Re: Bump Tiles to build with minimum JDK 1.8 ?

Nicolas LE BAS-2
In reply to this post by mck-2
Thanks for the research and the reminder.

Based on that, it seems to me that a minor release should be enough.
Perhaps 3.1.0 and not 3.0.8, but probably not 4.0.0, unless we start
actually developing against java 8 (i.e. lambdas, etc...).

Cheers!

Nick

PS: On a side note, did we try it with java 9 so far? Not that I expect
any real problem, but some of our dependencies are really old and may
need to be revisited.


On 2017-09-04 19:22, mck wrote:

>> But yes, I think it means Tiles 4.x if you are going to require that
>> users upgrade their Java version in order to upgrade from Tiles 3.x,
>> because it implies that you are going to use some new language
>> features that would make Tiles "not interface compatible with the
>> prior version."
>>
>
> So here there's two separate proposed java bumps…
>
>   1) upgrade the jdk required to build from 1.7 to 1.8, and
>   2) bump the minimum runtime to Java7 (from Java6).
>
>
> Note (2) was already agreed upon and has been public for some time:
>  
>   - http://tiles.apache.org/download.html
>   - http://svn.apache.org/viewvc?view=revision&revision=1536392
>   -
>   http://mail-archives.apache.org/mod_mbox/tiles-dev/201310.mbox/%3C1382990767.698.54.camel%40Device-D2AB6C%3E
>
>
> So the only change here really is bumping the minimum java required to
> build the project.
> My thoughts now are that this requires only a patch (minor.minor)
> version.
>
> While if we were to bump the minimum runtime to Java8, then that would
> definitely warrant the new major versions.
>
> what do folk think?
>
> regards,
> Mick
>
> ps  I came across this having troubles getting Apache's Jenkins
> infrastructure to build Tiles projects on JDK1.7, of which i see haven't
> managed to fix. (thinking that `maven-toolchains-plugin` needs to be
> added to pom's that want to still build with 1.7.)

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Re: Bump Tiles to build with minimum JDK 1.8 ?

mck-2

> Thanks for the research and the reminder.
>
> Based on that, it seems to me that a minor release should be enough.
> Perhaps 3.1.0 and not 3.0.8, but probably not 4.0.0, unless we start
> actually developing against java 8 (i.e. lambdas, etc...).


Wendy, Antonio, Brett: your input is valued, are you content with java8
required for _building_ tiles for Tiles-3.1.0 ?

And Java8 as a runtime requirement for Tiles-4.0.

regards,
Mick
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Re: Bump Tiles to build with minimum JDK 1.8 ?

Antonio Petrelli-3
2017-09-06 12:29 GMT+02:00 mck <[hidden email]>:

>
> > Thanks for the research and the reminder.
> >
> > Based on that, it seems to me that a minor release should be enough.
> > Perhaps 3.1.0 and not 3.0.8, but probably not 4.0.0, unless we start
> > actually developing against java 8 (i.e. lambdas, etc...).
>
>
> Wendy, Antonio, Brett: your input is valued, are you content with java8
> required for _building_ tiles for Tiles-3.1.0 ?
>
> And Java8 as a runtime requirement for Tiles-4.0.
>

Hello
I don't get one thing first of all. Why not moving to *all* Java 8 without
the hassle of compiling with a platform and retrofitting to another?
What is the purpose of such a move?

Antonio
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Re: Bump Tiles to build with minimum JDK 1.8 ?

mck-2

> I don't get one thing first of all. Why not moving to *all* Java 8
> without
> the hassle of compiling with a platform and retrofitting to another?
> What is the purpose of such a move?
>


So that compatibility of build tools is narrower than that of runtime.

One example is what java and maven versions apache's jenkins
infrastructure supports imposes different constraints as to what are
user base does.
Also we can provide a standard secured build tool set over multiple
branches that offer different runtime compatibilities.
Like knowing I don't have to go find JDK1.7 to build and test before
committing (or like having different jenkins builds to ensure we can
build on both Java7 and Java8, etc etc)

regards,
Mick
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Re: Bump Tiles to build with minimum JDK 1.8 ?

Antonio Petrelli-3
2017-09-06 12:39 GMT+02:00 mck <[hidden email]>:

>
> > I don't get one thing first of all. Why not moving to *all* Java 8
> > without
> > the hassle of compiling with a platform and retrofitting to another?
> > What is the purpose of such a move?
> >
>
>
> So that compatibility of build tools is narrower than that of runtime.
>
> One example is what java and maven versions apache's jenkins
> infrastructure supports imposes different constraints as to what are
> user base does.
> Also we can provide a standard secured build tool set over multiple
> branches that offer different runtime compatibilities.
> Like knowing I don't have to go find JDK1.7 to build and test before
> committing (or like having different jenkins builds to ensure we can
> build on both Java7 and Java8, etc etc)
>
>
So you are telling me that the only reason to change JRE requirements are
build tools?
I am the last one to tell you to stop (I am emeritus after all and wanting
to stay), but I suggest not to do such a move. If your reasons are better,
like moving to new Java 7 or 8 features at least for new code, I'm all for
it.
But build tools, come on...

Antonio
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Re: Bump Tiles to build with minimum JDK 1.8 ?

mck-2



> So you are telling me that the only reason to change JRE requirements are
> build tools?


It saves us time and effort by not supporting different build
tools/versions.
We're only changing the JDK requirements here.

The runtime environment stays at 1.7, for now.

regards,
Mick
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Re: Bump Tiles to build with minimum JDK 1.8 ?

Antonio Petrelli-3
2017-09-06 12:55 GMT+02:00 mck <[hidden email]>:

>
>
>
> > So you are telling me that the only reason to change JRE requirements are
> > build tools?
>
>
> It saves us time and effort by not supporting different build
> tools/versions.
> We're only changing the JDK requirements here.
>
> The runtime environment stays at 1.7, for now.
>

Why not stick with Java 6 using the Maven toolchain plugin?

Antonio
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Re: Bump Tiles to build with minimum JDK 1.8 ?

mck-2

>
> Why not stick with Java 6 using the Maven toolchain plugin?
>


Yes, I will do that if needed for the minor.minor versions.
Otherwise, personally, I'm uncomfortable relying upon jenkins.

Do we have developers who are building with JDK 1.6 or JDK 1.7 ?
If we don't, and can't foresee it, why bother supporting it? It's just
additional overhead, imho.

regards,
Mick
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Re: Bump Tiles to build with minimum JDK 1.8 ?

Brett Ryan
Hell, I don't support runtimes earlier than 1.8. I have always been the opinion libraries should only support the most recent and prior runtime, that means tiles should shortly only support 1.8 and 1.9. I don't know anything about tiles usage metric, but I can only assume users of tiles would look to use the it in new projects, not touch it in existing or upgrade only if the maven version plugin told them a new one is available.

I'm not going to tell you what to do except don't make it hard on yourself especially as I've been out of work a few months and looking for a job, tiles hasn't been at the forefront of my mind :)

> On 6 Sep 2017, at 21:06, mck <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>
>>
>> Why not stick with Java 6 using the Maven toolchain plugin?
>>
>
>
> Yes, I will do that if needed for the minor.minor versions.
> Otherwise, personally, I'm uncomfortable relying upon jenkins.
>
> Do we have developers who are building with JDK 1.6 or JDK 1.7 ?
> If we don't, and can't foresee it, why bother supporting it? It's just
> additional overhead, imho.
>
> regards,
> Mick
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Re: Bump Tiles to build with minimum JDK 1.8 ?

Antonio Petrelli-3
2017-09-06 14:00 GMT+02:00 Brett Ryan <[hidden email]>:

> I don't know anything about tiles usage metric, but I can only assume
> users of tiles would look to use the it in new projects, not touch it in
> existing or upgrade only if the maven version plugin told them a new one is
> available.
>

Well not exactly. I know that one case is not part of statistics, however
we use Tiles (in a Spring environment) under Java 6.
In fact the reality is exactly the opposite: Tiles is legacy. Tiles belongs
to server-centric web development, a thing that was cool a decade ago.
Tiles, as we know it, probably made its time. It works with old-style
projects with old-style environments. And yes, my current development is
old-style :-D

Just my 2 cents

Antonio
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